Interview With Ajahn Brahm on Receipt Of Award
On June 13th, Ajahn Brahm generously obliged me a Skype interview on his thoughts about receiving the above award, which I have transcribed below:
Ven Canda: How did you feel receiving the award?
Ajahn Brahm: First of all they asked me "do you want to receive the award?" and I accepted it. Then the first reaction was, "why do you want to accept it, you're a Buddhist monk, this is what we do, we teach, we serve, we are not supposed to achieve any accolades!" But the next thing was the reason why, which was for gender equity. Gender equity has not been achieved yet in the Buddhist world- we've made a big step in Australia and I thought this would be a wonderful statement, which will get around, to show that the western world (and many other worlds), really want to have gender equity, especially in Buddhism and Buddhist leadership.
I still remember one senior monk, (I won't name him), who said that Thailand wasn't ready for the ordination of bhikkhunis. I said "It's nothing to do with Thailand; these bhikkhunis are ordained in Australia, and England, and America. America, England and Australia are "not ready" for continuing gender discrimination. They've had enough."
V.C. What is the importance and significance of this award to you personally and to Buddhism as a whole?
A.B. To me personally, nothing. To Buddhism as a whole, it's for others to decide.
V.C. What were some of sacrifices you made in order to provide full ordination opportunities to women?
A.B. First of all, standing up and losing a lot of my friends and being isolated, but still having a great deal of support from people here in Perth who understood what was going on, instead of judging without much understanding or knowledge of what the situation was. Also, that sacrificing did mean extra hard work. Sacrificing rest for more work.
V.C. Do you still have more work from all that?
A.B. Well, it's lessening. Establishing monasteries for bhikkhunis in different parts of the world. A lot of people aren't doing that. So if anybody wants to help me and let me spend more time teaching and keep my health going really strong for many years, they should support nuns' monasteries like Anukampa, because one thing I knew straight away is that, in the same way you have responsibilities to look after monks, bhikkhus, you have the responsibility of training bhikkhunis for many years. My job is not just to do a ceremony, but it is to provide the four requisites of alms-food, clothing, lodgings, and medicines. That's my responsibility, especially lodgings, which are so hard to actually establish. That's one of the reasons why I spent many years fund-raising and developing Dhammasara Bhikkhuni Monastery, and now spending a lot of time and effort raising funds for developing Anukampa Bhikkhuni Project. So, if people want to help me and just lessen my burden, they should start donating. Instead of to fancy monasteries which have got gold and silver or huge halls which aren't used, just get something going for bhikkhunis in the UK.
V.C. Coming from a conservative tradition, where women had not had access to full ordination for around a thousand years, what prompted and convinced you that this could be done legally from the perspective of the Vinaya?
A.B. It is because I am more traditional than most of the monks in Thailand- by which I mean that I don't follow the commentaries over the Buddha, I don't use the Thai tradition- you go back to the Vinaya as taught by the Buddha in Pali. I had a good brain. Trained in Cambridge I got my O'level in Latin- and Pali was not that different. So, it was very easy for me to study Pali, get very familiar with it and also to use the Vinaya and find out there are no impediments to this. I was more traditional than the others. I still call myself a very, very traditional Buddhist. I follow the Vinaya, and the Dhamma, as taught by the Lord Buddha in Pali, rather than one or two translations away, as translations are not ever as good as the original word and then I use that to show this was allowed in the time of the Buddha and it is allowed today- we are not using loopholes; it's possible. Of course, I think you know that there wasn't a problem about the legitimacy of the ordination- that was accepted to be legitimate- it was very much about "We don't want this, we're losing face. That it is not according to our more modern tradition of say, Thai Buddhism." In Ancient Buddhism it was allowable and it was easy to resuscitate.
V.C. What are the benefits you have gained from taking full ordination as a Buddhist monk (bhikkhu)?
A.B. I gave an ordination last night to two candidates- young men. Part of my job is to give them a little 'anussasana', a teaching- and a phrase that I commented on afterwards and gave a fifteen minute talk on was "sila paribhavitto samadhi mahaphalo hoti mahanissamso" (just to show I really am a traditional monk and can quote Pali!); which means that when your meditation is supported by precepts- by the bhikkhu or bhikkhuni precepts- it is of great power and benefit. So people might complain "Oh my meditation is not so good, I have this problem;" one of the reasons is your precepts. Your virtue, sila, conduct, is not strong enough. This is not my interpretation; this is straight from the teachings of the Buddha. That's one of the reasons why, if you are a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni, your precepts (as long as you keep them) are far stronger than anything of a lay of person, which means that you have more power to develop deep meditation.
V.C. What are some of the areas that could be addressed to make things more equitable for women in terms of spiritual support and opportunities?
A.B. I think it's just to get the word out and then to give bhikkhunis the chance. Once they have that chance they tend to take it so well. So you have fully ordained Theravada  bhikkhuni monasteries in places like Australia and one starting soon
I hope- a big one- in England (!) and many other countries and when you actually see them working, they're really inspiring. Bhikkhunis do tend to keep their precepts far more strongly and inspiringly than the monks in 'the temple next door' and that's one of the reasons why some of the monks in places (please excuse me) say, like Thailand...you think "Oh my goodness!" We get shown up by the conduct, purity and renunciation of those bhikkhunis!
V.C. Are there any traditional and current protocols that need to be altered to reflect the full respect and value a bhikkhuni is due based on her equal ordination platform, that can be observed by and inspire the lay community?
A.B. This is where we look at the Vinaya Pitaka with the Suttas and there are a few anomalies there. The scholars- not just myself- should have a very deep look at those anomalies and find that there is enough wiggle room, interpretation, that you do not need to have any sense of superiority, anywhere, within the bhikkhu and bhikkhuni traditions. It's coming, its changing, but unfortunately there is a lot of inertia. Change comes, but not fast enough for most. And it's not change because of some western values, but change that was already within the Vinaya and the Sutta (Pitaka) that people don't realise is there.
Simple things (this is more like monk's stuff); people would sometimes complain if I ever shook hands with a woman. And there nothing in the Vinaya taught by the Buddha which objects to that at all. Yet (people say) "Oh no, no, no, that's bad, you can't do that." Where [is this stated in the texts]? So there are little things like that, which should- if the monks would have a closer understanding of the vinaya- be no problem.
V.C. How can monks facilitate providing opportunities for bhikkhunis to be empowered as visible and effective teachers of the Dhamma?
A.B. By making more opportunities for them to teach. By supporting them in the early stages, just as I'm doing and just as you would support a new monastery or temple that is opening up in your city. There are many lay visitors that will offer this and that, even a house or some part of their will, whatever it is, to support some really good cause. Have a look at that- there are many bhikkhu monasteries in the UK, so how many bhikkhuni monasteries in the UK? So, it's time to actually change that. If the bhikkhu monasteries start supporting bhikkhuni monasteries- I mean by asking their disciples to raise funds for bhikkhuni monasteries, rather than to add something to their own monasteries- what a wonderful thing that would be. And of course, you can quote the Buddha: the greatest act of charity, the greatest good kamma you can get, is not offering food to a Buddha, but offering to the Sangha led by the Buddha, both when the Buddha was still alive and after the Buddha passed away. The greatest act of good kamma is to offer to a dual Sangha of bhikkhunis and bhikkhus where it could be shared ~
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I thoroughly enjoyed my first visit to the Northants Buddhists group in Kettering on June 10th, which was also the first time they were visited by a Theravada monastic, AND by a female teacher (two for one!).
